INIT

Episode 5: Jake's In A Funk. Let's Talk About Money.

Published: Tue, Jun 6, 2023

(Auto-Generated) Episode Transcript:

Seth Whiting: Hey, I am Seth Whiting and I am a developer from Portland, Maine, and I've been coding for about 10 years now. And

Jake Pacheco: I'm Jake Paco. I'm a barber from Augusta, Maine, and I've been coding for, I'm on my

Seth Whiting: sixth week now officially.

Jake Pacheco: Are you sure? Officially, a hundred percent. I, before we recorded, I looked at the calendar and like, I was like, yep.

I'm on my sixth week. All right,

Seth Whiting: sweet. How does it feel?

Jake Pacheco: It's lately I've been in kind of a funk as far as like staying strapped in to reading long-winded, winded explanations on mm-hmm. What everything does, and that's, It's been pretty tricky. It's not that I've done no coding because of it, but mm-hmm.

Like, it's been a thing where like, you know I went from like every day to like, every like three or four days or something. Yes. This last week. Like a speed bump. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's a rugged one. And it's it's funny because like, I actually screenshotted screenshot, screenshot

Seth Whiting: screenshot a piece, a

Jake Pacheco: piece of an explanation that I I, that I was like, I'm like, am, am I the only one that feels a bit underwater when I read it and Uhhuh, I read it.

The first time I read it, it was like nothing got in. Mm-hmm. Second time I read it, I was like, okay. I get a few of it and then like the third time I run it, read it, I was like, okay, I understand what they're saying, Uhhuh. And it's just, you

Seth Whiting: know, what is it? What, can you read it? It's

Jake Pacheco: yeah, it's a, a objects passed by reference.

And its objects are passed by reference. This means that when we pass a variable assigned to an object into a function as an argument, the computer interrupts the parameter name as pointing to the space in memory, holding that object. As a result, functions which change the object properties actually mutate the object permanently, even when the object is assigned to a cons variable.

I understand what it means now, Uhhuh, but it was one of those things where it's like a lot of the stuff is written in a way, and maybe it's just the way that I'm learning uhhuh, maybe to some people, they'll, they can read something like that and just be like, yeah, this right. I had to read it three times before it, like drove home.

I had to read it three times and look again at some of the diagrams. I think diagrams helped me quite a bit. Mm-hmm. Just because it's, I,

Seth Whiting: instead of

Jake Pacheco: explaining in. The actual names of all of these things. It's, it explains by literally pointing at this is this, this is this, this is this. When you do this, it adjusts this.

Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And it kind of helps, but it's just, it's, it's when running into things like that where I have to read something multiple times and stuff and Yeah. And I know that I'm this kind of learner where I do have to go over things multiple times. I've always been this way.

It, it's, it, it kind of like yeah. Kind of puts you in a funk a little bit, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and beyond that, it's always going to be tricky, I think, until I have a better understanding of what everything is doing. Mm-hmm. Kind of less understanding what each, what, what this does to this, and this does to this.

How does that turn into something? Fortunately, Seth just showed me a bit of that just it, you know, to kind of coach me into like being like, well, like, no, this actually is applied in this way, mm-hmm. In order to like pull up like an actual, like, function of something on a website or something.

And that helps a lot because it's just, I think that sometimes it's hard to not get bogged down in, you have all of these explanations mm-hmm. Of these things, and it, it's, it's like, it's like if you were to build a house and someone had a great explanation for what a two by four is mm-hmm. And you're like, yeah, but how does this build me a house?

Right. You know, it's, it's, it's, yeah. A beautiful explanation on, on Pinewood. But you know what I mean? Like, like, so I, I, it's. It's obviously very useful information to have, and I, I, it's, it's needed. You need to learn these things, it feels like. But, but when you're in it, it's hard to see the the big picture of what this goes into and like, what mm-hmm.

What I can help create kind of, and yeah. I think that that's what I've been kind of having a hard time with at, at least just trying to sink my teeth into understanding a little bit of what it actually is doing. Yeah. Like, it's like, yeah, okay, now I know that that's the object and that's the function and that's the variable or whatever.

Mm-hmm. Like, it's like, but what do those do is kind of, you know what I mean? Otherwise, I'm just writing, I, I'm just writing things or copying and writing things and not understanding like what it actually pertains to.

Seth Whiting: Right. You know, like if, if you're, if the explanations that you're reading are written, like what you just read, like I can totally, I can totally see that.

Like they, I, I feel like. They kind of need to make it a bit more accessible. It sounds like, you know, like, like maybe even say what they just said, but then kind of reiterate like that all that means is like, you know, when when you pass objects, you're going to be changing the actual object. Like, it, it's not like a copy of the object

Jake Pacheco: kind of thing.

E exactly. Yeah. It, it feels like a very long-winded and scientific way, like, you know, beautifully written

Seth Whiting: mm-hmm. Of

Jake Pacheco: saying like, oh, by the way, you can change this object eventually. Yeah. And it will permanently change in the code. Mm-hmm. And this is how you do it. Mm-hmm. Instead of saying that, they say like, you know what I mean?

Yeah. And, and sometimes I get, I, I get a bit bo bogged down with just like Right. Reading

Seth Whiting: and rereading and rereading. Reread. Yeah. Like what they're writing is like, Accurate. You know, but like, yeah, it can be accurate, but also be like accessible. It can, you could, you can have both. Yeah. So I don't know.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah, exactly. So I, I think that that's, and I think that that's kind of the eventual idea of this podcast almost now, that it's kind of dawning on me that it, it really is like trying to be like, like, you know, everything that I want to know. Mm-hmm. And you are good at explaining things in the way that like, I understand.

Mm-hmm. But even if you throw it out in a scientific way that I don't understand, I can be like, so do you mean like this? You know what I mean? Yeah.

Seth Whiting: And it's like, you, you actually are the, the more valuable part of this podcast, because I can say stuff, that's not what I'm saying. Yeah. Well that's what I'm saying though.

It's like, but it's, it's a translator. You can thing. Yeah. Like you, you are at the level that the people that are listening to this. Like that, that those are the types of people that we're hoping to reach. So like yeah. If something doesn't make sense to you, I'm sure it doesn't make sense to them. So, like, you, you, the, yeah.

The most valuable part of this podcast is you being able to just be like, stop right there. What do you mean? Yeah. You know, here,

Jake Pacheco: here's my filter that I'm putting you through, so I can understand that.

Seth Whiting: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. So, yeah, it's I, so I, I, I guess a question would be, did you ever, like, I mean, I, I assume that you kind of, did you kind of feel that way when you got out of the bootcamp?

Is that like what you were feeling where you, you like, this is just this, this doesn't Yeah. Feel compelling enough for me to continue? Or is it because I, I, I don't feel like it's not compelling enough for me to continue, because I do think that there's worth in knowing this, and like, I'm excited to learn it.

Mm-hmm. Excited enough that I am going on regardless, but it's just, it, you know, sometimes you get those, those hits of like, ugh. Crap. How, how do I understand this? Like, how can I under, you know, how can I better understand

Seth Whiting: it, you know? Yeah, for sure. Like, I, I remember when I was, when I left the bootcamp, I was like, like I am, I think that like what I'm learning is cool, but it's just like really hard and like, I am feeling like, I don't know if, if I'm gonna be like struggling so much, like I would rather kind of spend my time doing easier stuff

Jake Pacheco: or something like that.

Yeah. Off of the struggle bus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And

Seth Whiting: like, you know, and I, I wasn't struggling so much that I was like completely in a rut and like whatever, but like, I had struggled enough to that point to be like, oh, this is, you know, it seems like it's just gonna be more of this, and, and. You know, like, I, like I say, on every episode, like you get past, you get past that, you know, there, there's definitely a hump that you have to get over, but once you're over it, it's like

freeing, you know? Yeah. Like, once you get to the point where like, you get how like, functions and loops and arrays and objects all like work together, you know, to, to like build upon each other and, and like help each other out and make each other more useful and whatnot. Like, it's yeah. Once, once you really understand how they, how they all kind of like piece together like, like puzzle pieces or like legos.

Yeah. Then, then you can kind of just take, take those little building blocks. They're, they're sort of like universal building blocks, like, you know, like the elements of the universe, you know, and you can do, you can mm-hmm. Make whatever you want. So,

Jake Pacheco: yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm excited for that point. And that's honestly what kind of keeps me going with it is like, yeah.

Being like, I, I just can't wait until the point where like, honestly, I can just write some of my own code mm-hmm. And know comfortably or somewhat comfortably that it's what it's going to do kind of a thing. You know what I mean?

Seth Whiting: Yeah, yeah. And really with the Code Academy stuff, like, I, I wanted to just kind of like get you like to the point where you've kind of like skimmed the landscape and then I think like what's, what's, what would be like most useful is to just like, Give you like a, a task, like you know, build out like a contact list where you can, you know, create and update and delete records.

You know, like, and just kind of like, be like, I know this is vague, but like, do what you can like, like Google what, what you can, and like try, you know, just try and like, whenever you get stuck, let me know and we'll go, we'll go through it. You know, that kind of thing. Yeah.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. That would be, I, I think, yeah, I, I definitely look forward to that.

I'm at like I'm on my second to last lesson in the JavaScript program there. Mm-hmm.

Seth Whiting: Yeah, and like the, the actual like task might not be that, because that would include like backend stuff and, and database Yeah. Stuff. There's, I'm sh I'm sure I could think of like a front end task. Exclusively front end.

That would be, yeah. You know, like a cool, like, fun project for you to like just figure out.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. Yeah. That would be cool. I, I, I'd definitely be down for that. Yeah. And also like, I think, I think that would be like a good test in general too, because it's like, I might not have the answer just in my head.

Mm-hmm. It would be, it would be helpful to be able to like, learn how to Google these things too and like learn how to, like, find the information for these things. Because like, I mean, that's honestly like with anything I learn, that's what I get very good at when mm-hmm. Like anything, it's just like I, I, I learn how to like, find the answer.

Yeah. Yeah. And like, yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, finding the repre like reputable sites to find these answers and stuff, so I'm, yeah. Yeah. I'm definitely excited for

Seth Whiting: that. But if you, if you don't have like the base knowledge of like how do loops and conditionals Yeah. Work. Then yeah, you then you, you know, you, you're starting from like less than square one basically, you know?

Yeah. Like, yeah. Trying to Google your way through this would be like, well, I don't even know, you know, what the thing is, what's available to me to Yeah. To make this stuff, so, yeah.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. One thing that did get me excited recently mm-hmm. I just blasted through like objects.

Cool. I loved objects. Yeah. I dunno, I dunno if it's materialism or what, but

Seth Whiting: No. But

Jake Pacheco: like, yeah, no, like, I, I, I had a lot of fun with that, like, objects and then I, I forget what they call 'em because, you know, too many big words, learning too many big words. Like I watch a lot of anime, I forget a lot of the names of the people on it because it's like, I don't hear these words often, so I don't know their names.

Seth Whiting: Yeah. Like you don't know who they're talking about half the time, but Yeah. Yeah. I'm like,

Jake Pacheco: yeah, exactly. But but yeah, so like, you know, like you'll have your like, object. Like one of the most recent ones was like, you'll have your object that is like the captain or whatever, and then like you'll have like the captain's, like favorite foods and stuff like that.

Mm-hmm. And like and I, I enjoyed doing that. And then at the end of it, like sorting through and like using what is it? I, I'm, I'm going to, you know, ruin this, but is it like bracket notation or bracket something just to, just to pull out, like, you know, you can be like you know, brackets with like a zero in it and then mm-hmm.

Brackets with a two in it and it'll bring out like the, the second thing under the, it'll bring out the second like sub thing off of that

Seth Whiting: main thing. Yeah. So you're talking about like get, getting things by their indexes. I kind of liked it, like in an array, but that mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. But

Jake Pacheco: those would be strings, the brackets I think.

Right.

Seth Whiting: Or something that, that would be a raise. So like the the square brackets mm-hmm. Are, are used for arrays and then like the, the angle brackets, or not angle, sorry. The curly braces are used for objects. Okay. Yeah.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. So I guess I'm thinking then, but

Seth Whiting: to, to access properties of objects, you would do like dot notation, you know?

Yeah. But like captain.name. Yeah, yeah,

Jake Pacheco: exactly. Like Captain would give you the value

Seth Whiting: like Long John Silver or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I shout to Long John Silvers. Shout out Long John Silver.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. But like his sponsor of the podcast. Thanks. Thanks, Johnny. Boy. It's long. But yeah, no, I, I, I enjoyed doing that.

Like, it, it felt like it, like I, I, at least when I was doing it, it felt like, it was like I was getting this, like I, I understood what

Seth Whiting: I was talking about and, you know what I mean? That particular kind of stuff is like mm-hmm. You'll, you'll use that so often. Like Yeah. You definitely use that a lot. Yeah.

Sweet. Yeah.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. So that kind of got me a bit excited about all of it. Mm-hmm. And I'm still like, you know, watching some YouTube videos just online, like, just again, we're like listening to different like what people went through when they started and stuff. Mm-hmm. Just cause I, I find it kind of helpful slash slightly inspiring depending on who you're listening to.

I guess Uhhuh some people are kinda a downer. Oh, really? But I mean, just like, not, not I, you know, just it, some people are, they really intensify, like, you know, or, or, or really hit home like, like, I guess how difficult it is to, you know, maybe even like, just like things like find a job, like in it. Mm-hmm.

In the sense where they'll be like, oh yeah, you can just like, put out like 500 applications and hope that one hits kind of a thing. Yeah. Which, which I, I, I think we spoke about a little bit,

Seth Whiting: Yeah. Some, how some people have a really difficult time.

Jake Pacheco: Have you ever had like a really hard time with that or anything?

Or has it been pretty if you need work, you can find it.

Seth Whiting: It's mostly been the latter. Yeah, mostly, yeah. I, so there have been times where like, I, like really needed a job and then I, I just kind of like took what was available. But then other times where like I stumbled upon like an opportunity that was like, oh, this is great.

You know, like, I, like, I don't feel like I'm settling or anything, you know? Nice. Yeah. But yeah, for the most part, like it's, I haven't had a lot of like downtime between the jobs. Like, there hasn't been a lot. But yeah, some, some people like, I, I've definitely seen people like post, like infographics basically of like, I applied to this many, and it's like in like the several hundred, and then they're like, yeah, these are the people that like, got back to me, with like a rejection letter.

And these were the people who, who got back to me about an interview. And then like out of those, there's like, you know, a small percentage who got back about a second interview and then like mm-hmm. It like kept going down and like, yeah. Finally there was one out of like the 300 or whatever that like, or, or I guess there were like two or three that like off, like actually gave an offer or something and then they, they selected one.

So yeah, I don't know. For like, that hasn't been my experience. No. But also, also for sure I was super lucky in that I had like a good network before I even like got into coding. Because of the bootcamp and stuff or? Yeah, because of the bootcamp, because of, mm-hmm. The like after I like quit the bootcamp, I, I tried to like start a business with some friends who, like, like Kenny was one of them, who like, were trying to build out this application with me.

I, I was on like the business side of things and they were on like the tech side of things. And so like, I, I wasn't touching the code or anything, but like I was working hand in hand with coders there. But not only did I like make good relationships with those coders, but so we, we were going through this like business accelerator program in Nashville called the Jumpstart Foundry.

And. It's a, is it a three month program? I think it is. And mm-hmm. So anyway, they hook you up with like mentors. They hook you up with like a ton of like great resources. Like what do you need help with? Like, oh, we've got people who like can advise you in like, all of these different, like, areas and stuff.

So like, I added like a, an amazing network through that. And then also through the bootcamp and then also through like my college, you know? Yeah. So like, it's definitely, definitely in any industry, I'm sure. But I've found that like the old adage of like, it's not what you know, it's who you know is very true.

I've found it to be very true. So like, yeah. And I'm not, I, I'm super introverted but like so you don't have to like, be going out there and like, talking to everyone and like whatever, servicing everyone. Yeah. Yeah. You just kind of have to kind of like put yourself around other people, you know?

Yeah. That you like that. Like if you, if you're trying to like be a coder, you know, like go, go places where coders go or like go places where, you know,

Jake Pacheco: people hire coders and talk, talk to your friend, talk to your friend Seth, and reel him into teaching you how. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get you. Yeah. So, yeah, I, I guess that's, that's one thing that I'm like, you know, I, I try to kind of, with anything, I really try to like, not like get bogged down by other people's reviews with most things, just cuz it's like, eh mm-hmm.

That's, that's their own, you know, that's That's their journey, you know, like it's, yeah. But yeah, that was a thing though. I was like, ah, like, huh, I wonder if that's like actually gonna be like an issue. But then, you know, then I read, you know, I was reading a thread on Reddit where, you know, they were talking about like money and like how much like a guy's, like yeah.

Like, I barely know anything about coding or anything like that. He's like, I'm very much still learning. Mm-hmm. And like, I got a job offer and it was like, for like 45 k a year salaried for like the state. And he's like, is that any good? And like, a bunch of people were like, like, no, we have coders in like, in our company that I know are making like 60 that don't, like, literally don't know what they are doing, like at all.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I kind of try to like land somewhere in the middle where I'm like, you know, like, it don't expect it to be super easy. But also like there's, as long as I'm trying, like there should be people that are probably worse, you know what I mean? Like, like

Seth Whiting: yeah. So that's, that's something that we like, had been meaning to talk about.

You want to, do you wanna get into like, yeah,

Jake Pacheco: yeah, yeah. I'd like to get into that because it's, well, again, like, I mean, it's it, as far as like getting bogged down and stuff, I know like, you know, if I'm feeling money can be

Seth Whiting: a, a like a be, I mean, an not an inspiring thing, but it can be like

Jake Pacheco: something to like, it, it can be a goal, you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and I, I, you know, one person turned me onto levels, FYI, uhhuh on YouTube and like, so I checked out that and I was like, oh, like there's some, there. It's, it's actually like really decent money even for like starting people. Like, it's like kind of, it's kind of crazy. And, and I don't know if those are accurate or anything like that as far as like what you should expect, but it's like uhhuh.

The money is out there being made, you know? Yeah.

Seth Whiting: Yeah. But yeah, so

Jake Pacheco: I I guess, I guess that is a, a, a good a good segue

Seth Whiting: into this. Yeah. A motivator that's, that's the word I was looking for. Money can exactly be a good motive and like, you know Yeah. If you're getting into any career path, you wanna know that, like, there's money in it, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like there's sort of like a general kind of like, I guess like idea outside of the, the development community that like, developers do make like a decent amount of money and yeah. I th I think, I think it's, I think it is pretty decent. Mm-hmm. So I can tell you, like in 2013, my first coding job where like, I, I knew H T M L and c s s.

Pretty well, and then I knew like JavaScript a bit and I was, I was doing mostly H T M L and c s s so like web design as opposed to like web development. Mm-hmm. Like, so if you're, if you're just doing like the visual parts of the, the page and stuff. Yeah. Like, I guess web design is more like when you're creating like design files in like like a designing software, you know, like for developers to then take and, and create, mm-hmm.

That if, if you didn't know, like, that is a big thing in the industry. You'll, you'll have like designers working hand in hand with developers and the designer will be like, I don't know how to code this, but this is what, like, this is like what it should look like. Yeah. So now you, you take what I've kind of created.

On, on my, like design software and then turn that into code. Like that's, that's a big thing.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. So it's kind of like the relationship between, again, like an architect and an engineer. Yeah. Like yeah, like you have the designer and then the engineer might be like, oh, well yeah, okay, I'll, I'll make that work.

Yeah. Yeah.

Seth Whiting: So like, it, and it, it may not be clear to a lot of developers. Like, you don't need to be good at like the, the, the visual aesthetic side of things. Like, you don't need to be the one designing the pages. Like they, there are designers that can do that for you and probably should do that for you because they're, they spend all their time designing things and you don't have a lot of time for that to, to like, yeah.

Learn all of like the design principles and everything.

Yeah.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah, I mean, that, that makes sense. It would be inefficient probably. Yeah. If like, yeah, if you have, you know, a mechanic working on a house or, you know, yeah. Or the, the other way around, it's like, well, yeah. Or like a slightly different

Seth Whiting: thing.

Yeah. Like the, the architect isn't then building the, the house and then like the, the house builder isn't necessarily going to be the one who's architecting it like that. That's, yeah, exactly. Probably pretty rare that you would have, you know, somebody who does both. Both in the same, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. So it's kind of similar, similar vibe there.

So, as far as money goes in 2013, I, I didn't, I didn't know much. I knew just enough to be able to work on a project in some capacity basically. And before then, I. I had a job, I had a job working on an oil rig in Texas as like a doing like procurement. So it was just like logistical work on a computer that like, I didn't know how to code or anything.

It had nothing to do with that. It was just like, we need these like parts for this oil refinery. It was terrible. It's awful. Wouldn't recommend it to anyone, just Texas, like living in Texas working on an oil rig. I wouldn't suggest that this is, I I would much rather this is our first

Jake Pacheco: non shoutout. Yeah, no.

Shout out to negative. Shout out to negative shout out oil

Seth Whiting: refineries in Texas or anywhere else. Yeah, the big oil. Big oil. Go heck yourself. Yeah, so anyway, that, that job like I actually was making like. Decent money for like a kid. Like I was still in college. I actually took a year off of college. And I was out there making 15 an hour.

Mm-hmm. And then my first like entry level coding job was 20 an hour. Like not, not knowing enough. Yeah. Not knowing enough to do it like I should. Yeah. Yeah. But I, you know, I like learned a lot on the job and everything and like 20, 20 an hour. That's 40 k a year. Yeah. Like, and, and

Jake Pacheco: in 2013 that was like, yeah.

Pretty darn decent. Like, that's like really decent for 2013 especially, you know?

Seth Whiting: Yeah. And then my next job was 25 an hour. Mm-hmm. So like right there, that's like half, half. Half a hundred grand. Trying think of how to say that. Like, like a hundred grand is like six figures. So it's like halfway there.

Yeah. And kept working up. Now I'm over the six figure mark, like pretty, pretty, like comfortably. So like I guess, and, and that's sort of another thing is like kind of like hopping from, from job to job is sort of like how you get more money.

Jake Pacheco: That's, that's kind of what I've read. Not to interrupt you, but is it?

Yeah, no, you're good. Like people are like, if, if you're spending more than like a year at a job, like you're, you should just move on if they're not giving you pretty aggressive pay raises because it's like, oh, like other people will Yeah. Kind of a thing is

Seth Whiting: what opportunity cost. Yeah.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. It's a, that's a very interesting.

It's thing. Well, yeah, because like, that's not like how it works with a lot of other jobs. I feel like, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, I, I in general, I've always talked to a different job if it had a better opportunity for making money and stuff, you know, that's how I became a machinist, and then that's how I became a barber and stuff.

And like, it's, it's one of those things where it's like, it, it makes sense. But I guess I didn't know that it was so aggressive in in, in programming where it's like, no, like mm-hmm. This is how you get a raise is you go from here.

Seth Whiting: Yeah. Yeah. I think the biggest leap from was like from, from going to a WordPress developer to working on Toptal as like a React developer.

That was like a pretty huge leap pay, yeah. Pay wise. Yeah. Which is why, you know, like, like I said, like I'm trying to push you towards that. Yeah. That route. Yeah. Like right from the get go. But like yeah. You know, as a re as a WordPress developer, I think I made around 80 before I left which still doesn't

Jake Pacheco: add, that's not, yeah, it's nothing to shrug at

Seth Whiting: really.

Like, but then yeah, like I, I like, like almost doubled, like pretty quickly. Like, damn. Yeah.

Jake Pacheco: Wow. That's, I didn't, yeah, so it, it got like, yeah. So that, that was really a game changer, I'm sure like, for you, like that

Seth Whiting: was like, like I say, how long it wasn't, it wasn't double, but it was very Yeah, no, a very big leap.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. Yeah. It brought you north of, of, of six figures basically. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, yeah. That's awesome. Now, how long ago was this and how long had you been coding at that point, do you think?

Seth Whiting: Actually, so I've reached the the six figure mark. I was I was, I was working on a project with a friend, but we had like an investor and th this was in 2016 or 17, and I was making I think 90, so like the I was making like, just enough to get me away from the, the WordPress development stuff, but also like, it was work that I wanted to do.

It was like we were making a, a react native application, so like a phone application built in JavaScript. And so I was, I was making like 90 and then so I think this was when. We found out that Sherry was pregnant and like I was, I was working on this thing with my friend and it was like, I think it was hourly and it wasn't like a stable thing.

It didn't seem stable. And I was like, I'm gonna have a kid. I need something. Yeah. Stable. And and he was like but let me talk to the investor and see what I can do. And like at, at this time, I was like, I talking to an like a firm here in Portland who is looking for like a React developer. And and like I basically, like if I wanted a job with him, I, I could have had it.

And I, yeah, I told my friend that, he was like, lemme talk to the investor. And he came back and he was like, How about instead of 90, you start making a hundred. I was like, oh, that's a good number.

Jake Pacheco: That's a, that's a nice round number. Yeah, so,

Seth Whiting: and I, but I think at the time Sherry actually got a job like a full-time thing with like awesome benefits and stuff.

So we, we just used her benefits and that like, freed me up to do more like contract type stuff. Like, like, because I didn't need benefits. I, I could do more like project based things, which actually pay more. On average, I would think probably. Yeah. Cuz you kind of like name your own rate and people just kind of like, Pick, pick you up for jobs and, and then put you down.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. So, so more like you're talking like freelance kind of stuff? Yeah. Or what would be called freelance. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, that makes sense, huh? That's, yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. And, and now, and now you're here. I'm here. Yeah. Because it's, it basically what kind of pushed me into the, like, coding is with my job.

Like I adore cutting hair. Like I, I really love it. I have, I kind of a knack for it in a way. Uhhuh and stuff. Like, I, I'm pretty decent. We have a very busy shop. I'm one of the four owners of the shop with my brother and a couple of my friends. Mm-hmm. And we have seven people working there altogether. And we're booked all the time.

It, which is really amazing and I'm stoked for it. Mm-hmm. But it. You really only make money if you're behind the chair. Mm-hmm. If you're, if, if you're there. Mm-hmm. Where that becomes a problem is I'm somewhat introverted. If anyone knows me outside of work, I'm not like I, I'll be talkative around people that I really know very well.

So like, I don't mind it if I've had like a client for a long time, but meeting new people all the time is absolutely draining to me. Mm-hmm. So it's a thing where I was like, basically to make really good money in barbering, you work every day. Mm-hmm. Like, you, you work every day, you're open or whatever.

This last year with the house built going on and stuff, I d dropped my hours down to three days a week. Mm-hmm. Which is very minimal. And it's, you know, it's nice and stuff, but it's also like, you know, then money doesn't it? It's, it's not like it is like a problem. Mm-hmm. But, You know, there's no I have to be there.

Yeah. On those days. Yeah. If I'm not there, then money does become a problem. Mm-hmm. And it's one of those things where in e even beyond that, there's, when you run your own business, unless you give yourself pay stubs, if you run it as a sole proprietor it, it's extremely, it doesn't matter what your credit score is, it doesn't matter how well you do, what do you look like on paper?

Mm-hmm. And like, okay, yeah. Say I like, do like, I don't know, like 50 grand a year or something. Then it's like, yeah, I, I, I make that money. I pay for my car with that money. I pay for my rent with that money. I want to build a house and I want a construction loan, or I want to buy a house and I want a loan for that.

Mm-hmm. And okay, show us the last five weeks pay stubs. Right. It's like, Oh, I don't do pay stubs. I don't get pay stubs, and that's an instant halt to like getting any loan or anything like that. Mm-hmm. So it's just, it's been fun. And I, I will always, I think I'll always cut hair in some regard, like whether it's like one or two days a week or something like that, just to kind of, I, I don't know.

I, I do worry about like, if I am at a computer constantly, then I don't want

growing up I was homeschooled and I met a lot of homeschooled kids. That ended up being like kinda awkward, you know, like I, I, I am an adult now, but like, it, it, it is a thing where I'm like, I don't want to like, be completely absent of being around people at all. Yeah. Like, I, I still, I still do love my, my, like I said, like my clientele that I've had for a long time.

Yeah. But I, I'd much rather do that for like two days a week. Mm-hmm. Where it's like, Hey, hit me up if you want a haircut instead of me being available on the booking app or whatever. Mm-hmm. And then the rest of the time I'd like to just code and eventually maybe even just phase out barbering all together, you know?

Seth Whiting: Yeah. Well, to that end, you know, if you're coding, there's a high likelihood that you will at some point be coding on a team, you know? Yeah. And then, then you'll be interacting with like, other, other developers you'll be interacting with like a project manager. You'll probably interact with like a designer,

Jake Pacheco: you know?

Yeah. So I guess that that is a good, that does go into a good question on, do you ever get like like I, I guess for lack of a better term, like cabin fever from it? Like, just like being like, no, I'm on a computer like all day, pretty much every day during the week,

Seth Whiting: you know? So the answer is no, but I'm wondering if that's because of me and like, you know, I, I am very introverted and, and like, yeah, I don't know, maybe, maybe like most developers are I, I don't know what, like the breakdown is between like, introversion and extroversion and, and whatnot. Yeah. I would assume probably more introverted.

Yeah.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. And, and every, every test I've ever taken as far as like Myers Briggs test and stuff like that, yeah. They always like put me in introverted. Yeah. Yeah. So like, yeah, I mean, it would, it would kind of make sense. Like you have to be comfortable just researching and doing things on your own and like be kind of like self fueling in a certain way.

Seth Whiting: But yeah, you can, I can also, you know, collaborate with, with people, there's such a thing as like pair programming where like, you know, two people work on a problem together. And you know, and then, and then there's also just like, if you're working on a team, you're going to be interfacing with, with people on a daily basis, you know, and it's, it's like the last several jobs that I've worked, it's all been virtual.

You know, I've, I've just been like, on like Zoom chats, which is, you know, different than Yeah. It's person.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. I mean, I, I, I guess the question very specifically is me to you. And this might not apply to anyone. Everyone like Seth's answer to this. Yeah. But I know Seth to, to a degree, and and like I, I know that like whenever I see him, I look forward to seeing him and I enjoy like, talking to him like a lot.

And I mean, obviously we're doing a podcast together. Yeah. But, so I guess. If you enjoy it, I'm kind of assuming that like, yeah, I'm in, you know what I mean? Uhhuh, like, in any case, like I, I think that like, yeah, if, if, if it worked for you, then I think that it would work for me just because, like, I'm, I'm, yeah.

More on that side of things as far as like slightly introverted, unless I'm like comfortable with people and stuff. Mm-hmm. And I, I do, like, I, I, I considered a computer very comfortably for a while.

Seth Whiting: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, there's a thing, like, to me it's like if I have like a, a, a test that I'm working on or like a problem that I'm like getting through or whatever, like a, a coding problem, not like a personal problem or anything, but like, I, like, I love just kind of like zoning out with some, like, masu in my headphones and just like, yeah, just like, literally just like getting into zone where I just, I'm just like, Looking at a screen, like blaring out any other, like distractions and just like Yeah.

You know, turning into a zombie for a bit and like yeah. Producing good work because of that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. There's something, there's something like appealing to that for me.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. That kind of that kind of like flow state Exactly. Almost of like Exactly. Solving a problem and stuff. Yeah. I, I, I get that cuz like a as I've been doing it, like at first I was like, I can't listen to anything I need to like, just focus in and like, not cuz I, I would get like easily distracted and stuff and like lately it's been cigar Ross.

Yeah. I can't understand anything they say anyways, so it, it, it works. But yeah, so I've been just like listening to that and zoning in. And I do get that like in waves of that, like where you're just working on something and you're like thoroughly enjoying it. Mm-hmm. Like I said, the only stick that gets stuck in those spokes is is when I have to reread something five times before.

I'm like, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's, it's saying that it does this. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I've noticed a lot and again, maybe one of the reasons why I enjoyed like the objects chapter quite a bit was that like I had had enough knowledge of other things and how they worked to, to like kind of be like, oh, it makes sense that like, when I need to solve this problem, it makes sense.

They would be typed like this, right? And then they'd be like, you know, if I got an error, it'd be like, check your script. Maybe you misspelled something, or something like that. And I'm like, and I'd check it and I'd be like, oh, I just misspelled something, but I did it right. Uhhuh. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Which is like, I. Oh my word. Exciting. Like, yeah,

Seth Whiting: I know. It's,

Jake Pacheco: it's, it's such like, it's, but you know, just like with everything, it's such small baby steps until you're like really comfortable with it. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And a

Seth Whiting: lot of it, it's just like, you know, like, I don't know what metaphor to use, which is like throwing, throwing the ball at the wall over and over and over.

Yeah. And like, or, or, or just like doing the same type of thing over and over. And eventually, like, you don't need to think about it as much, you know? Like, yeah. If you, if you're working with objects on a daily basis, which you will be, you know, once you, once you get into coding like it, it's just sort of like, it becomes second nature.

It's all like muscle memory after, after a while. Yeah,

Jake Pacheco: that makes sense. I mean, that's like, yeah, I explained that to one of our apprentices that we have right now. Mm-hmm. In barbering where I'm like, yeah, it seems like a really steep hill right now. I get it. Mm-hmm. But it's like, eventually it is like breathing, like, it's like I don't, I, I don't have to think at all about doing whatever fade or whatever, you know, Uhhuh.

Whereas like right now he's on like hour long air bus, you know what I mean? And I'm like, yeah, yeah. I have to push it to, to make it be a half an hour just cuz I feel like the person wasn't getting the money's worth otherwise, you know?

Seth Whiting: But,

Jake Pacheco: but yeah, so I mean, I guess that, that definitely does make sense and that's kind of what I've been telling myself is like, it's just like everything else I've ever learned where it's just like, yeah, these are just like all the little building blocks to building the full thing, you know?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But yeah. Yeah, it's the. Another thing that's been helping me a lot is the podcast, cuz it kind of, it not only holds me like kind of accountable mm-hmm. To like, doing it. Yeah. Like, sometimes like, like I'll be like, oh crap, I haven't coded in the last few days and the podcast is tomorrow.

Like, I have to like, sit down and do stuff. Yeah. You know, so like, then I'll just like grind out like four hours Yeah. Of like, just like, you know, focusing hard on it. Mm-hmm. And it's kind of like, it's, it is been pretty darn helpful. So I guess a I, if I could like, give any advice to anything or anyone is like, find someone who's gonna like, kind of hold you accountable to like, you know.

Yeah. Like, or, or, or like kind of help even if they're not gonna be like, Hey, did you do it? Like mm-hmm. Like, find someone who like, will make you be like, like, oh, how's that going? Yeah. You know? Yeah. So then you have an actual answer. Yeah.

Seth Whiting: Yeah, I think, I think maybe like a, a helpful thing for, for people like in your position, like who don't want to like do a whole podcast or whatever is like, yeah, yeah.

Find, find somebody who knows what you want to know and like, kind of like ask them if you can like, check in with them on like a weekly basis or something and just like, go over what you're learning, you know, sort of like a, a mentorship kind of

Jake Pacheco: thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Seth Whiting: That I think, yeah, like, cuz like, I think what you said is sort of like just having that kind of built in, like structure or whatever is is, is definitely helpful.

Like I, I, I feel like that would definitely, would be, would have been helpful for me. Yeah, that, I think like what was actually helpful for me was just like jumping right into the fire and, and, you know, like working on something. Yeah. Which makes sense. Yeah. The, the structure for me was not like meeting with somebody on a weekly basis, but like getting paid to do something on a daily basis that like, I don't know how to do, so I need to learn it.

So like, it's, it's diff it's, yeah, it's a little different. It's different but pretty small. A lot different, but Yeah. Yeah.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. It's different, but it's, it's similar in the sense where like you had Something, you had something external almost that was like, relying on you doing this and this is something more internal.

Cuz like, like I said, like Seth isn't like writing me about this. He's not like, Hey Jake, like, did you do the thing? Did you, you know, it's, it's more of like a internal, like, I, I want to, I wanna make sure that I have stuff to like, say about anything. Mm-hmm. If I didn't do anything, like, that's just like, okay, then why am I even doing this?

And how, how can I even progress in the podcast? Mm-hmm. As far as like, without like actually learning a thing. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Seth Whiting: Then I'm just, but I mean, that's a good, good point though. Like, for people in your shoes who are going through what you're going through, like, it, it would be so much easier to just find something else, you know?

But for you, you have the, the podcast, so you're sort of like, you know, Eventually we're gonna start releasing these things and like, people are gonna be like expecting the next podcast. Exactly.

Jake Pacheco: Exactly. You're cutting them down, you know, like Yeah, exactly.

Seth Whiting: Yeah, and letting me down, you know, I'm already like, yeah, I'm, he's already so let down.

No. If you ever, like, if you ever like, were like, you know, I feel like my time would be better spent on something else, you know, like that we could just like do a final episode and, and be done with it. That's whatever. Yeah. But like, I think you want to learn this, you wanna do it. Yeah. So like, I, you know, that's, that's what I'm here for and that's like why we're doing the podcast and stuff.

But for people in your shoes who don't have a podcast, like they could go out and do a podcast. But I think like other methods of like keeping up is like the mentorship thing. Trying to, trying to just like, go on like Upwork or some, some like job market thing and like under bid, you know just like basically get any kind of like entry job, just doing like very basic things and kind of just like figuring it out.

Like if you can. And that is also like another good thing about doing that kind of thing is just sort of like the, gets your foot in the door, you know of Yeah. Of like programming in general. Like, you know, yes. I, I'm, I'm doing this, I, I've made money doing this. You know, and you can, like, you could start like building a portfolio.

I mean like, I guess a good like. It, it doesn't have to do with JavaScript, but like you, you could like a good project for anyone to take on if they're just trying to learn, like H T M L and c s s is just like building like a resume website, you know, just like Yeah, just a, a website with like your, your picture and like a, like a bio or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. That's something that you could probably figure out, just Googling, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know, like, but you know, it's talking through this is making me kind of worried, you know, in that like, you do need something to like, support you through your journey, you know? It is like, yeah.

For, for me, if I were trying to do what you're doing, like self-learning, I, I, I think I would. I think I, I would have quit, you know at some point. Yeah. And, and like, even, even then, and I did quit, you know, even the, even the like non self-learning route. So like, it, it is, it's, it's hard. And like, I want to, I don't know, just like be a support to like anyone out there listening, you know, like talk, talk to me somehow.

Like, reach out to me. I'm glad to. Yeah. Like, just like talk to people you know,

Jake Pacheco: Eventually, we'll probably, eventually we'll probably set up an email so we can just have like, Hey, if, if you wanna shout out to us or talk to us, like, hey, you know, talk to us and we'll, we'll try to get back to you.

Seth Whiting: You know?

Yeah. Like even talking to Jake might even be like, more helpful because he's going through what you're going through, you know, at this like either or in, in more of like a realtime basis. Mm-hmm. But yeah, like email or like a, some sort of like chat thing, like a discord or like a separate it or something like that.

I don't know.

Jake Pacheco: We'll get to it. Okay. Yeah.

Seth Whiting: Yeah. So I mean, yeah, I guess that's basically what I'm trying to say. Or like, what I'm thinking of is like, how can we be, how can I be, I guess, supportive to other people in your shoes? And I think that's like, just sort of some sort of like open communication channel, like talking to, to me and Jake, that might be helpful.

Yeah. And if we, if we do do that, which I like, you know, I I'm gonna try to do that then, like, take advantage of it if you're struggling.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I'd be more than happy to help in any way that I can, which is pretty limited right now. But as far as just motivation goes, I mean it's I, I can kind of point in directions of what's helped me so far.

Mm-hmm. You know but yeah, I, I just know that it's, it's helped me a lot just having something mm-hmm. That is like, I, I need to have done something between this time and this time. Yeah. I need to have like, focused in and, mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that that probably would be pretty helpful to just, yeah.

If, if, if anyone needs to reach out or anything like that maybe we can even like, throw out projects for you to try out or something like that. We'll, we'll, we'll try to get get some of that set up. Mm-hmm. But. Yeah, I mean that's that's pretty much everything that I wanted to talk about tonight is just how do you get through the funk?

How do you get through the funk, man? You know? Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a hard funk sometimes, but it's, yeah. I don't know. For, for me, it's those times where I do understand the code. Mm-hmm. When I, when I look at a, a, a few lines of code or, you know, a block or something, and I, I, I understand that, oh, that's a block now.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And like, oh, that's this,

Seth Whiting: and it's, yeah. Like all those little, like light bulb moments, like Yeah. Yeah. Like, oh,

Jake Pacheco: yeah. Yeah. And even if I, if I can't place the name of the thing that I'm looking at in my brain, I know what it does uhhuh. And like, I feel like that's, I don't know, I, I, in my mind, that's more important in a way, but like it's mm-hmm.

You know? Mm-hmm. We'll see.

Seth Whiting: Yeah. But,

Jake Pacheco: but yeah, that's, that's, yeah. That's pretty much I. What we're working with right now. And

Seth Whiting: yeah. Cool. Well, I'm glad that yeah, like I, I'm glad that this episode wasn't just like me talking again. Yeah. This is more like focused on you and like I, yeah. I, I want to, I guess like ruminate a bit on like how, how can we be the most helpful?

How can I be the most helpful? But I know that you also wanna be helpful, so like, to other people. And maybe, maybe that involves like some sort of like community thing where like we have sort of like a plan and like other people can like participate in like the week one, week two, week three thing.

And if they don't do it, like I. To get publicly humiliated or something. Yeah,

Jake Pacheco: yeah. You know, like, just, just, I think the, I think it's important even with these like modern days and you know, it like we're talking cutting edge technology Yeah. With coding and stuff. And I think it's important to kind of reel it back, go back to public humiliation.

Yeah, exactly. Like flogging. Yeah. You know, like, you'll send a photo of yourself. We'll, we'll make fun of it a little bit. If that, if that, if that's what drives you. Yeah, I'll do that. Right. We'll just roast you.

Seth Whiting: Yeah. Yeah. It'll be fine. Perfect. Yeah, we figured it out. Here's Yeah, we figured. Yeah. Yeah.

Jake Pacheco: I hope this helps, but but yeah, in all seriousness, we are gonna try to brainstorm and figure out something that might.

Be more helpful as, and more so we can actually respond to our listeners mm-hmm. And help in any way that we can. Yeah. Cause that is the overall goal of all of this is so people in my position or even if you're a little further along, but in a similar position, you can, you know, kind of go to this, learn something hopefully, and maybe even ask a question if, if you, you'd like, and if you do ask questions that, like, I think Seth said in the last episode, it gives us more material to work with anyways.

Mm-hmm. So yeah, we're, we're happy to, happy to help where we can.

Seth Whiting: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, like you said, like that along with like coming up with ways to like, be supportive, like hopefully this podcast is a form of support, you know, to, to be like kind of In solidarity with everybody else, like learning, you know, going through their journey.

Like, you know, seeing, seeing that it's like you're, you're not alone in, in the struggle, in the funk. Yeah. Yeah.

Jake Pacheco: I mean, I, I, I, I hope that people can see that when I like mislabel things, when I say something wrong or something, it's like, yeah, no, like I am truly just speaking this stuff out, trying my best.

Yeah. So even if it's like hey, you know what, you don't have to listen to us every day. You could listen to us like once a week and follow the program that we're doing. You know what I mean? Like where it's like, yeah, okay, we expect you to be, you know, at this level here or something. Yeah. I dunno.

We'll figure something out, I suppose. Yeah.

Seth Whiting: Yeah. Maybe like, you could like document like what you've done each week and people can Yeah. You know, kind of like go along with like take Yeah, that's what

Jake Pacheco: I'm saying. Take track. Yeah. Yeah. That, that could be kind of cool. They have just like a, a note of it, kind of a thing.

So it's like, Hey, this, this episode Jake studied this to this.

Seth Whiting: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this week Jake did nothing.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah, exactly. And then he public humiliation. Yeah. And then I get the public humiliation. You know, it's, I, I'm fine with being public, publicly humiliated. It's, I,

Seth Whiting: I,

Jake Pacheco: yeah. The real thick skin on these bones.

Yeah.

Seth Whiting: Well, cool. Alrighty. Oh, cool. Well

Jake Pacheco: yeah, th thanks again for listening everyone, and you know, we appreciate you returning to us. Yeah. And yeah, Seth looks like he's thinking of something, so,

Seth Whiting: well, I'm just thinking like, n next week, I think we should do maybe like one of the more like concrete, like like So the, I've been thinking of doing like the foundations of JavaScript episode, and I think like maybe next week would be good for that.

At some point we were talking about maybe doing like a live coding episode but that would be more of like a visual thing. So like maybe we would put up like a YouTube video and maybe that shouldn't be like, associated with the podcast. Like maybe we shouldn't release it as a podcast, but maybe like an extra little like feature thing, like in a, in a, in a, a kind of like companion YouTube channel to the podcast or something.

But yeah, anyway, we're thinking of, we're thinking

Jake Pacheco: we're, we're, we're, we're, we're trying to figure out the best ways to help.

Seth Whiting: Yeah.

Jake Pacheco: Yeah. So, yeah. We'll Seth and I will talk more about it and hopefully we'll have something put up relatively soon. Yeah. Cool. Yeah.

Seth Whiting: All right.

Jake Pacheco: Well thanks for talking, man.

Yeah, thank you very much, Seth. All right. Have a good one, guys. All right. See ya.